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Sage
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Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 794
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA |
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 Integrity |
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Am I the only person that finds it shocking that many of the people involved in this genre, including many 'old timers', do not possess the honesty and integrity to be open about their positions in spirituality and/or politics? I understand that people have a need and a right to privacy in their lives but in a genre where politics and spirituality are so important beyond a simple artistic means, shouldn't we be explicit in our intentions?
Its amazing to me, how I can't even bring up the word politics anymore in an interview with a neofolk artist without them not only ducking the question, but getting upset!
I won't name names, but a neofolk artist from the beginning wanted us to interview him recently. We accepted. The first question I asked was political because I wanted to get it out of the way. Not only did he proceed to reject the interview completely from that point forward, he's completely removed myself and heathen harvest from his online presence (including facebook, etc.)
Integrity. Have we lost all concept of its importance in this era? We hide behind vague lyrics and ideals so that we don't have to be honest about our intentions, to the listeners, or seemingly to ourselves.
More to the point, if we can't ask the REAL and IMPORTANT questions as journalists, then what is our importance in the scheme of things? How can you cover culture if the culture covers itself up...
</rant>
_________________
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God? |
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| Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:53 pm |
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Herbstwerk
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
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I bet this neofolk artist is Tony Wakeford. 
He made some ridiculous moves recently to deny some supposed right wing connection. Like posting a photo of gays on his FB page as a proof that his concert is not a fascist event 
In fact Tony Wakeford was really a far right activist and supporter and a lot of his early songs are full of this stuff. He regrets this now and this is fine - everyone could change his mind. But his over sensitiveness about this subject simply shows that there is something wrong in his views.
Of course maybe it's another artist which would be even more shocking.
I think the main reason is that most neofolk bands are afraid to be connected to far right. Except that this would attract neonazis to neofolk (although it attracts them anyway) it would also limit or even cut their presence in the semi-mainstream media of the gothic, metal and alternative music scenes.
On the other hand recently Douglas P. have openly expressed in interviews some negative opinion about Islam and even Muslim immigration to Europe. I wonder how would he respond to a direct political question.
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| Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:21 am |
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Sage
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Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 794
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA |
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I bet this neofolk artist is Tony Wakeford.
He made some ridiculous moves recently to deny some supposed right wing connection. Like posting a photo of gays on his FB page as a proof that his concert is not a fascist event
In fact Tony Wakeford was really a far right activist and supporter and a lot of his early songs are full of this stuff. He regrets this now and this is fine - everyone could change his mind. But his over sensitiveness about this subject simply shows that there is something wrong in his views.
Of course maybe it's another artist which would be even more shocking. |
While I won't name names, I will say that it was in fact not Tony Wakeford, but someone who was connected to that group of originals in those days. It was also not Douglas P., Michael Cashmore, nor Mr. Tibet. That's the last I'll mention of that as I feel it would go against my personal integrity as a journalist to defy that confidentiality. If he wants to speak up for himself, I'm sure he'll see this post one day or someone will point it out to him who's familiar with the situation.
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I think the main reason is that most neofolk bands are afraid to be connected to far right. Except that this would attract neonazis to neofolk (although it attracts them anyway) it would also limit or even cut their presence in the semi-mainstream media of the gothic, metal and alternative music scenes. |
The fact that Neofolk bands are afraid to be connected to the far right is my point entirely. Neofolk was born out of the ashes of this type of right-wing fascination and literature / political movements. I've read about Mr. Wakeford, for example, having been associated with the Third Position movement in his youth, and obviously his "Against the Modern World" album had Julius Evola written all over it. There's nothing to hide, and there's nothing WRONG with having beliefs outside of what mainstream society finds acceptable. Neofolk's very existence is owed to this right wing ideology. Why deny it now?
Let me be clear. I believe the denials, the dishonesty, and the outright silence from these artists does more to HARM the genre than to help it, and in fact makes a mockery of the seriousness that the music represents for many of us. It makes those outside looking in not only assume the worst, but assume the worst of the entirety of the genre, right down to the media outlets covering it. I was recently declined to cover a project based on his assumptions about Heathen Harvest being neo-heathens tied to racial nationalism and anti-modernism. While this may be true for a few of us, HH is a loose collective of many beliefs, ideals, races, and sexual orientations. However, the damage is already done, not only for the genre but for those representing it. The ironic part for me, however, is that I feel like people like Troy Southgate take it too far.
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On the other hand recently Douglas P. have openly expressed in interviews some negative opinion about Islam and even Muslim immigration to Europe. I wonder how would he respond to a direct political question. |
This is the point that I made above about Southgate. I can understand mourning the loss of a kingdom and the dilution of a Western culture. I fully understand and in many ways support their stance against the Islamic immigration into Western Europe. But I feel that it goes far beyond that at times, to full blown racism. When you stop concentrating on specific social problems and start getting into the realm of blind ignorance, that's where I draw the line.
Thanks for responding to this by the way. I was starting to wonder if I was ever going to get anyone talking and pondering my thoughts in this.  If anything I think we as a genre need to push our elders to be open and honest about their beliefs, yesterday AND today. Look at black metal. Burzum, Emperor, Darkthrone -- they've never been apologetic about their ideals or their actions. I'm not comparing the two, just giving an example. Neofolk has stagnated because they simply refuse to lead and give the next generation of artists something concrete to build around.
_________________
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God? |
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| Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:29 pm |
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Kanashibari
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 141
Location: Osaka, Japan |
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I really don't understand what's up with the modern neofolk scene, and how skittish, aloof, and defensive everyone seems to be when the question of ideology comes about.
Personally, I've always believed ideology, not matter the intent or belief, is always a strong part of what art is about, and any art without it, even if it's seemingly abstract material such as dark ambient music or surrealism, is just hollow and powerless without it.
When a musician like that just runs and hides whenever someone brings up their beliefs, it usually sends a message that they are ashamed of themselves and too cowardly to be honest about it.
I dunno, Tony Wakeford, from what I read, has generally been both open and honest about his past as a National Socialist as well as open and honest about what his current beliefs are. That's ok, it's his choice, as long as he doesn't try to deny what he once was, or act as if he's ashamed of it.
It was a stage in his life, part of a learning experience, played an integral part in his art and artistic views, and now he's changed. Stand by it!!
Personally, I believe neofolk has no inherent ideology other than to be ideologically driven, just as black metal is. Far right views(not just National Socialism, for those who can't distinguish specific views versus their most infamous labels) were part of the image of neofolk, and st the image that gained the genre notoriety, but I believe romanticism, paganism, occultism, and radical traditionalism are just as integral to the spirit of neofolk.
I could probably make an educated guess as to who the musician is, but won't out of respect for whether he reads these pages or not.
_________________
cut yourself with heaven's blade..... |
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| Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:47 pm |
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Sage
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Joined: 16 Nov 2006
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Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA |
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I completely understand and agree with your point. I just feel that there are two points to be made here from my end:
1.) Neofolk is born out of this inherent right-wing style, whether it be artistic or ideological. With this comes the usual militant, prideful, courageous image. Isn't it a smack in the face of your beginnings to hide from simple questions? Have the fucking courage to face the facts. And if you're NOT interested in politics, why run and hide? Just do what you've said Tony did: Say it was a mistake and that's not who you are anymore.
2.) How in the world are we supposed to do our jobs as journalists if people can't open up about their past and their beliefs? We're trying to ask the important questions here that people actually give a damn about, not "oh who influenced your music?" for the thousandth consecutive interview...
Sorry, this was written hastily prior to work this morning, will reply more thoroughly later to any responses.
_________________
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God? |
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| Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:03 am |
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Herbstwerk
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
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For me there are two main reasons for what you are complaining about. One specific and one general.
1. The already commented wish of the neofolkers to distance themselves from the right wing scene. This is purely pragmatical and commercial. Right wing music has no attention except from the right wingers.
2. If you try to think of any modern scene or subculture that has any social/political message or ideology I guess you won't come up with any. Now it's all about lifestyle like it or not. There is a lot or nostalgia and revivalism in modern music, also a lot of irony, but no politics and ideology. It is cool no more, you'll look silly if you try to preach through your music. This is the spirit of our time and neofolk couldn't escape it. It's not even about politics, just look at modern mainstream rock music - can you image Coldplay or Arcade fire doing what Kiss or Bon Jovi did, singing how they're rock us hard and all night long or something like that?
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| Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:58 am |
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Sage
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Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 794
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA |
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For me there are two main reasons for what you are complaining about. One specific and one general.
1. The already commented wish of the neofolkers to distance themselves from the right wing scene. This is purely pragmatical and commercial. Right wing music has no attention except from the right wingers.
2. If you try to think of any modern scene or subculture that has any social/political message or ideology I guess you won't come up with any. Now it's all about lifestyle like it or not. There is a lot or nostalgia and revivalism in modern music, also a lot of irony, but no politics and ideology. It is cool no more, you'll look silly if you try to preach through your music. This is the spirit of our time and neofolk couldn't escape it. It's not even about politics, just look at modern mainstream rock music - can you image Coldplay or Arcade fire doing what Kiss or Bon Jovi did, singing how they're rock us hard and all night long or something like that? |
1.) That's fine and I understand that, but my point is that they want to act as if it never happened, well, most of them anyway. My point was pretty clear that I feel its okay that they distance themselves, but do so in a way that doesn't give the impression that you're a complete coward... Just speak the truth, don't hide it away. My point was more about "The Means" rather than "The End"
2.) I'm not sure that I completely understand what you're trying to say here. When you say "modern" are you talking about popular recent scenes? Which would exclude Neofolk, in my opinion. Otherwise, I don't think scenes, as a whole, represent an ideology or message -- but rather music is so easily available today that artists can fend for themselves more comfortably outside of genre-hardened social molds.
I guess I just don't see the difference between "lifestyle" and having a "message". Because I live my life in the way that my personal beliefs and views dictate. When I begin recording music, it will be the same thing. I also don't think you have to 'preach' to have a message.
When you went on to compare mainstream music, you completely lost me. I feel that is a completely different monster. Those types of things begin, evolve, climax, and fade, just like anything else. Even if it made sense to me, I feel its an unfair comparison. Neofolk artists aren't trying to achieve that kind of status so whats 'cool' in the eyes of society / the public doesn't necessary apply to the genre (or any of the genres found here for that matter).
I go back to black metal because I feel that being outside of the mainstream mold, it is a more fair comparison. There are still projects today doing the same think the big four did in the beginnings of the genre. Are they looked upon as if they're silly because of that? Absolutely not. The genre as a whole has been fading and stagnating for what now seems like an eternity, but I think it boils down to how an individual perceives their taste in music and what that music is telling them, rather than how it is seen through the eyes of a movement or scene.
In that respects, my initial comments on this were towards certain people (and a certain person in particular who had set me off to begin with), not towards the scene in general. The discussion became about the scene in general though because, looking back at my 5+ years with Heathen Harvest, it seemed that thoughts and beliefs were only hinted at, never stated, when in interviews most of these artists had all the chances in the world to delve into their thoughts.
Neofolk is already losing steam because of a lack of new, original artists. They need leadership, old artists whom are outspoken. Something to grasp. That is where it hits home for me. Neofolk has all the potential in the world to explode into something far more beautiful and unique than it currently is -- ROME is living proof of that. But it just continues to slowly bleed out.
If nothing else, since I tend to rant and go off on fractured tangents, I'll boil my overall point down to one small paragraph: Where is the courage to just state who the fuck you are, openly, and honestly? Forget about "moving away from something" and what looks silly. It shouldn't be about outside perception. It should be about the reality of who you are as a human.
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For the record its not really about complaining for me. Its more a frustration born from the proverbial 'elephant in the room'. Something that had been eating away at me about this genre for a bit and that no one seemed to be talking about, or even comfortable discussing. I apologize for completely derailing the discussion. Would be nice if a few more minds would chirp on on the subject but unfortunately the forum seems to be on life support anymore... Thanks for the good discussion, Herbstwork.
_________________
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God? |
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| Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:52 pm |
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Kanashibari
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 141
Location: Osaka, Japan |
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I, for one, completely agree with what Sage is trying to say, and in an age where being outspoken isn't "cool" in the underground anymore, I generally tend to find new artists to be inspired by fewer and farther between. Everyone seems to prefer "playing it safe" and keeping it "just about the music", which is nonsense to me, as music is always directly inspired by ideology!!!
Black metal still seems to stick by it's ideologies, and tries to instill a sense of discipline of sticking by your beliefs in musicians and fans, and this is why I still support it after all these years, despite it's grown popularity.
I think another problem with the neofolk scene nowadays is that, compared to it's origins when bands were bold pioneers without an established scene to rely on for support, it's now relying on the modern merging of scenes to keep it's support afloat.
The post-industrial scene, punk scene, electronic music scenes, neofolk scene, goth scene, and metal scene seem to be all converging once more, and there seems to be this climate nowadays where you can only get support if you "keep everyone happy", avoid stepping on toes, or offend members of certain subcultures.
Being outspoken may get you remembered as being important after you cease making music, but it doesn't sell records.
Neofolk artists nowadays want to sell their records to members of the goth scene, who seem to run away at the first mention of any ideology other than locksmith pacifist liberalism.
Others can't differentiate the difference between "right wing/traditionalist" and "nazi/racist".
However, all of this is a petty excuse in my book, and is really one of those things that's going to kill the underground the more people want to keep their art hollow, abstract, and uninteresting.
I don't care what you believe, as long as you stick by your guns!!! Bloody apologetic cowards!!!
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cut yourself with heaven's blade..... |
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| Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:11 pm |
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voidrone
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
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...Neofolk is born out of this inherent right-wing style, whether it be artistic or ideological. With this comes the usual militant, prideful, courageous image. Isn't it a smack in the face of your beginnings to hide from simple questions? Have the fucking courage to face the facts. And if you're NOT interested in politics, why run and hide?... |
Im sick and tired of this ambiguity; I mean why to preach something that in real life you're not going to defend it by answering a simple question?
Sorry, but I cant believe in that so-called militant art and/or the artists who made it.
I have a similar feeling over all the arditi-triarii's copycats martial-neoclassical projects of this days. They are reducing the genre to a boring repetitive thing.
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http://crepuscular.com.ar |
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| Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:39 pm |
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Pyne
Joined: 24 Jun 2010
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but I believe romanticism, paganism, occultism, and radical traditionalism are just as integral to the spirit of neofolk. |
Indeed. Personally, I find those elements to be more interesting than the political aspects.
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| Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:25 pm |
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shesaiddestroy
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
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Not everyone approaches right-wing ideology in the same way, of course. For Douglas P. it seems to be more about power and creative destruction, submission, and self-realisation. For others it is more run-of-the-mill 'omg the muslims are taking over' nationalism with a bit of false sociobiology and references to white power.
I like the mixture of the pagan and occult with the power of fascism as an artistic banner which I hold to, but in politics I am not particularly right-wing, perhaps just a bit authoritarian! Most neofolk has connections with right-wing ideology, but it is not clear how that would translate into practice and real-world politics.
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| Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:04 am |
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Satanarchist
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 431
Location: mouth of chaos |
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I think is really hard to say that the origins from Neofolk are demarked by Right-Winged ideals per se. More likely i would say theres lots of romanticism, esoterism, conservatism (of course) and symbolism alongside the murky crypticism displayed.
As far as we can go and see, we may call em anti modernists, neo-conservatives and perhaps nationalists to some extent but to name them all as right winged is not just a simple generalization but a very abroad definition.
Right wing may include all kind of ideologies associated in between, for instance pagans and christians, which radically differ in many of their goals and ideals. Not to mention defenders from capitalism and globalization to radicals against it, and in this group we can throw anarchists and leftists as well...
Right wing is not necesarily "right" it may be left, in fact i believe fascism which is the extreme of the right may have a leftist face easily.
On the other hand nothing remains untouched or stable, and this applies for every single thing in this universe. Tony wakeford for instance was a trostky follower when he was young, before becoming NS, then he retired completely demotivated and married a jewish girl and became sort of apolitic...
Can we call him a coward? i dont think so, he was something he is not anymore and he is loyal to his belief.
Wether we like to accept it or not our beliefs even if based on apparent solid rock, tend to change as our impressions and motivations change with time.
I guess its a safe and intelligent move to be discreet about ones ideologies, specially when youre an artist. Because youre gonna get exposed to the public in the form of your art, your art will be the scale in which youll be measured and i believe its quite an stigma to be labelled as something nd then never been able to escape the grip from such nomination, look at Tony Wakeford for instance....
I think the greatest disease from Neo folk its his own traditionalism, whenever it tries to evolve and change the radical traditional crew will call this effort as dishonest and rubbish. There is no space for exploration and change in the traditionalist mind, the world its one and must remain as such, the radical traditionalist will listen one hundred bands sounding all the same and he will have an orgasm with it, he loves the world untouched and unanimist, he loves to imagine the world as a never ending utero in which everything remains unaltered, unchanged, pacific, secure.
Thats the end of Neofolk.
Curiously, that was his beginning.
Bands like Rome and OTWATM are changing in the right direction, they continue to be loyal to their core and this will lead them to a new set of artistic discoveries. But hey, as someone said here, is this music really appealing for other people with standard mentality?
The music still needs food to make music to get food...
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Vincit Qui Se Vincit |
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| Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:45 am |
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Sage
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Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 794
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA |
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I feel like the only points that I'm trying to make keeps getting lost in discussion.
#1: People should have the courage to simply state who and what they are, their intentions, what they believe in, especially if they're going to be a part of a music genre that has such tendencies associated with it.
This doesn't just boil down to right-wing conservatism, but every walk of life. Are you singing about killer zombie pandas in esoteric fashion? Fine, but don't be embarrassed or ashamed to tell the public so. Be a man and stand up for what you think.
#2: What is our purpose as journalists if no one has anything of interest to say outside of "I am influenced by..... I like to read.... " etc? If we really want to do this thing, it needs to go beyond reviewing this and that. Half the battle of being a journalist is to ask the tough questions and get to the bottom of the music, not just the superficial exterior.
Anything else past those two points is just additional conversation.
For the record, I don't think someone who CHANGES is a coward. Everyone changes. The people who are cowards are the ones who refuse to speak about tough subjects in their life, or over-react when certain words like POLITICS are mentioned and fall out of an interview. People are misinterpreting what my words are here.
_________________
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
Last edited by Sage on Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:23 pm |
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Sage
Administrator
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 794
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA |
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Also, do you not feel that once you experiment in neofolk beyond its realm into any number of given directions, it becomes no longer neofolk? If you get too classical, you become neoclassical. If you get too dark, you become dark folk, if you get too rock, etc........ Even today, I feel the term is overused to describe artists. I do it myself.
I feel like the only artist who has accurately portrayed neofolk in a direction of progression recently is Kinit Her. They've taken ritual ambience and combined it, and it has come out sounding very animistic.
Which leads to my next question for you Ayax, what do you consider a radical traditionalist who has mostly environmental concerns?
_________________
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God? |
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| Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:28 pm |
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Satanarchist
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 431
Location: mouth of chaos |
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Also, do you not feel that once you experiment in neofolk beyond its realm into any number of given directions, it becomes no longer neofolk? If you get too classical, you become neoclassical. If you get too dark, you become dark folk, if you get too rock, etc........ Even today, I feel the term is overused to describe artists. I do it myself.
I feel like the only artist who has accurately portrayed neofolk in a direction of progression recently is Kinit Her. They've taken ritual ambience and combined it, and it has come out sounding very animistic.
Which leads to my next question for you Ayax, what do you consider a radical traditionalist who has mostly environmental concerns? |
Hum yet again theres a variety of characters in there. From the ones who are ready to be inmolated and spread a disease over humankind in order to diminish the population or perhaps to extinguish it all till the lovers and protectors from black roses?
I already told you sage why i think theres people who are reluctant to tell things straight, they are afraid from the reaction and permanent association they may get out of it, it has happened in this very forum often.
Douglas p, Albin Julius and many other people with apparent right winged ideals in front of "normal" people have been persecuted to no end, Albin ended changing his aesthetics more than probably because of that, his swift change of direction from martial industrial to Sludge its a kick in the face to whoever kind of fan he may ever had who followed his fascist uproar. Douglas publishing the gay and israeli flag on his webpage... it comes to the point it becomes just ridiculous.
They are scared to be linked, they are scared to be boycotted or even killed by hells know who?
Sage youre asking some people to be explicit and therefore courageful in a world that liberals and so called democrats call "free" but that is no free at all, everyone who tries to imply remotely any link with something that society considers non sanct will be stigmatized. Another example Sage, Leni Riefenstahl... she couldnt escape her works when she was in her youth, all her life everything she did was backed up by this ignominious label behind her.
Maybe most people doesnt have the courage to be detained, boycotted or stabbed during a presentation.
I for once believe crypticism is a shit and ive always thought its an scapism from responsability and a disguise or a lame way to acquire notoriety and gossip and therefore money, i guess maybe at some point the artist should be frank and become explicit, but maybe when he does it he will lose interest from people.
This leads me to ask you as a journalist? are you interested in the persona from the artist or the art itself?
I think artists shouldnt conceed interviews... writers write, musicians do music, painters paint... and we are behind them trying to get something else they are probably not even good at, to talk, to explain, to give opinions, to talk about politics, to judge and then journalist start to pass right that delicate line between privacy and opinion in order to feed the need from the public for more information, in order to indulge their greed for associations and explanations.
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Vincit Qui Se Vincit |
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| Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:30 pm |
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